November 12, 2008
Protest at Mormon Temple Not Best Messaging Method (Ryan J. Davis)
I'm a little scared of the anti-Mormon fervor that I'm seeing in the gay community. All over Facebook today the statues look like we're planning a Night of the Long Knives at the Mormon Temple in NYC at 6:30. Seriously guys, cut it out. I know you're angry. I know you need some way to express that anger, but the Mormon Temple in NYC makes no more sense than your grandparents' retirement community in Sacramento or The Apollo Theater in Harlem. Can't we be better than this?
While thousands and thousands of protesters gather outside the Mormon Temple, evoking scenes of Fred Phelps, we'll still be left with a simple fact: We were out-organized and out-fundraised in California. That's why we lost. It's great to see all these voices speaking out about Prop. 8 now that it's too late to do anything about it. Where were these people weeks ago when the Equality Groups were on their knees begging for money? We knew we were being out-fundraised for weeks and I rarely got a message about it. I've been contacted about 30 times regarding this single protest.
This protest will just confirm the Mormons' fears about us and will certainly be portrayed negatively in the media. It's old, divisive politics. Politics I'd like to put behind us and had hoped we could after Obama's historic victory.
Now, I'm not defending the Mormons. I've been speaking out against them since before it became trendy and there are ways we can express our anger without another Kristallnacht. You can avoid staying at the Marriott and make jokes about polygamy.
But in the end, it wasn't the Mormons that passed Prop. 8 in California, so your nights spent suffering at Holiday Inns will be in vain. It was the people of California who voted to put bigotry on their law books and it's shameful. So let's educate them. Outreach, not Anger. We have to actually spend time on this; we can't solve it screaming for two hours at people walking into a church.
I'm ready for the fight, as long as I don't have to become a crazy fundamentalist monster to be part of it.
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When liberals are disappointed they do what they do best, and engage in tactics of hate and rage, because that's the basis of all liberalism.
It isn't just the Mormon church being attacked. Black pastors who backed the amendment are being attacked by thousands of liberal bloggers using the "N" word.
Where is the coverage of this in the press? Let's face it, liberals are tightening the circle against themselves and showing how little credibility they have as progressives.
It's interesting you used the word Kristallnacht. That's all most liberals have as their tools, naziistic hate and rage of their fellow man.
Comment by Robert Rosencrans — November 12, 2008 @ 6:14 pm
It's not wise to protest at a church no matter how one feels. You can't blame everyone who is Mormon for the outcome of the Proposition that denies marriage to gays. This is a civil rights matter, not a religious one. Please protest elsewhere. It hurts your case bringing religion into this. This will and should be reversed at some point by the courts.
Comment by Joyce — November 12, 2008 @ 6:32 pm
I may have felt the way you do in the past, but I think we should protest the Mormons and take our protest to where they live. After all, it is not like we are funding anti mormon television ads. Maybe we should. Frankly there is no time like the present to say we wish equality in this society. The Democrats did us no favors when they said they did not approve of marriage equality.No one has our backs. If we don't toot our horn no one else will. Saying pretty please be nice to me has not gotten us anywhere, has it?
I mean if history went your way, we would still have colonial rule in India, and Blacks and women would not have the right to vote.
I am all for asking the question can an organization be both a political action group as well as a church and receive tax exempt status?
Since I do not have the same right, can I pick and choose my civic obligations? No more jury duty?
Maybe we should say enough is enough. I standing up and saying I have had it!
so there!
Comment by Philip — November 12, 2008 @ 6:56 pm
I could not agree with Davis less. These demonstrations are the reason that the bigotry of Prop 8 has become news after the fact. It's the reason that Frank Rich, Keith Olbermann, Jon Stewart and others have talked and written about the subject in the wake of the passage of Prop 8. Might I add that I'm also sick of hearing that gay people didn't do enough to reach out to black churches, who, in addition to the Mormon Church and the Catholic Church, were responsible for the passage of this abomination. That's like saying that black people were responsible for Jim Crow laws because they didn't reach out enough to racists.
Comment by Bob Hofler — November 12, 2008 @ 8:28 pm
Sorry, Ryan, but the Mormons have earned it.
Proposition 8 is not the first time the Latter-Day Saints' leadership has pumped millions of dollars into a state election to fight gay marriage.
They began with the ballot initiative in Hawaii ten years ago, when the legislature punted to the voters after Hawaii's state supreme court, in the Miike case, found that an existing ban against gay marriage violated Hawaii's constitution. The LDS church and Brigham Young University led and gave majority funding to the fight for a constitutional amendment.
The LDS hierarchy has also fought against gay marriage in Alaska, in Massachusetts, and previously in California. They have earned these protests over a decade, not merely a week.
Rachel Rawlings
Philadelphia
Comment by Rachel Rawlings — November 12, 2008 @ 10:44 pm
Next time fellows, please come to Texas and try your protests in one of local churches. After their bones heal and vision restored these scummy homosexuals would quickly learn to go back to their closets. And stay there. We don't need no education, pal.
Comment by Misha — November 12, 2008 @ 11:10 pm
The NO ON 8 were not out fundraised or organized. The YES ON 8 led a campaign of lies and the last time I checked "baring false witness" was a sin. Shame on the Mormons and they deserve everything that is coming their way.
Comment by Daniel — November 12, 2008 @ 11:47 pm
Ryan. I not agree with you. i think you are 100 percent wrong in your message and your facts. Very irresponsible blogging.
1. "We were out-organized and out-fundraised in California." Well ONLY SORT OF TRUE. You were out organized yes. Recently a memo has surfaced that The Morom Church had had a plan to combat Gay Marriage for well over 11 YEARS. So yeah we were waaaay out organized. "Out Fundraised in CA but also changed the basic slant of the Prop to be used in a Fear Type situation. Mormon money was used to change the subject from marriage equality to what Johnny would be taught in school.
The face of the Yes on 8 campaign (Richard Peterson of Pepperdine) is Mormon.
The spokeswoman of the Yes on 8 campaign (Sonja Eddings Brown) is Mormon.
The Wirthlins (parents who starred in one of the Yes on 8 scare ads) are Mormon.
Mormon PR flacks Glen Greener and Gary Lawrence came up with the lies that scared the ignorant half of California into voting against equality.
Jeff Flint, co-campaign manager, ran Orrin Hatch's 2000 bid for the Republican prez nomination.
The folks waving "Yes on 8″ signs on street corners were predominantly Mormon.
Mormon donors were what? 77% of the donor base?
Mormon money paid for the lies to be broadcast.
But now the election is over and they won't be running any more ads so it's a great time to make sure our message gets through loud and clear.
Without Mormon support, the Yes on 8 campaign would've been dead back in August. Now they own this little "victory" … it's all theirs.
Of the $600,000 anti-gay bigots had in hand to try to ban gay marriage in Alaska in October 1998, $500,000 came from one big lump sum donation from the Mormon Church. That's 83% of the entire hateful campaign financed by the Mormon Church. In California, one study showed that 77% of the donations to anti-gay advocates came from Mormons (it was after those donations flew in that the pro-gay side suddenly started to lose).
The Mormon Church has a long history of trying to forcefully impose its will, its religion, on others. Over the next few weeks and months, we're going to educate America about those efforts.
So Mr. IRRESPONSIBLE BLOGGER. Before you go comparing the Gay Community Protesters to the Fred Phelps Clan. 9HOW DARE YOU BY THE WAY. YOU TRULY ARE AN IDIOT)
You need to stop being so SCARED amd start doing soe RESEARCH before you write.
Comment by Will — November 13, 2008 @ 7:59 am
I think I respectfully have to disagree with parts of what you are saying.
Yes, the protests and loud voices are all coming a day late and millions of dollars short, but now that they have arrived it's time to organize and use them to get the message out — we're not going away.
Educating people who believe they can selectively use Bible teachings to discrimate can not be the only course of action that's taken. Peaceful yet loud rally's against any and all persons and/or groups that put forth the effort to validate discrimination are an effective weapon that must be used as well.
Comment by Chris — November 13, 2008 @ 11:18 am
You sound like the new JC Watts gunning for talking-head time on Fox. Sarah Palin made about as much sense calling Obama a Marxist as you do calling peaceful marches "Kristallnacht."
You'll be hearing from ADL soon. Who knows what your career might have been like?
Comment by New Yorker — November 13, 2008 @ 1:10 pm
Misha, I live here in Texas as well.
Even though I'm straight, I'd love to be leading the charges, and protests, against any & all tax-exempt religions using gay tax dollars to keep homosexuals as second-class citizens, the biggest hypocrisy of all fostered by the religious bigots in this case.
And if you're calling yourself a "Christian", then you are NOT allowed to be physically violent, especially against those doing you no physical harm.
Of course, Christ DID show anger one time, Matthew 23, when he called out the pharisees and scribes for their religious hypocrisy, a message resonating today as it addresses those like Misha, who think their religious hypocrisy goes unnoticed in God's eyes.
Christ NEVER sided with the oppressors, but always took up the side of the oppressed, in this case, Jesus is clearly on the side of the protesters angry against Prop 8.
Jesus ain't on your side on this one, Misha, so if you have a problem with that, then take it up with him.
Homophobia will, at some point, take up its proper place, on History's trash heap.
Comment by KingCranky — November 13, 2008 @ 1:15 pm
I'm frankly astonished that you would compare a peaceful protest by a group of disenfranchised individuals to factions of the Nazi party. How dare you! Talk about old, divisive politics. Are you just trying to get attention?
No one in the gay community is advocating for religious intolerance. We are standing up against intolerance. Anyone can believe what they want to in this country. But when a religious group acts as a political action committee and gets religious belief written into law through a campaign of smears and lies we must stand up against it. It is fundamental to the integrity of our state and nation.
I urge you to be much more careful in the future with such callous and hateful remarks. Since when is standing up for civil rights and bringing injustice to light a "fundamentalist" belief?
Comment by Michael — November 13, 2008 @ 2:40 pm
I'm with you on this one.
They ARE doing what the yes on 8 folks said in MA. They DID send a bunch of 1st graders to a lesbian wedding at tax payer expense. The SAME people who were saying it won't end up in the schools were fighting against efforts in MA (my state) to delay discussions of gay marriage/relationship and indeed ALL human sexuality until sex education classes in later grades.
No rights have been taken from gay folks other than the "right" to call it marriage. Elton John even indicated that it seemed strange to him the gays were trying so hard to have access to a heterosexual institution–can't they just be proud of who they are?
Reasonable people can disagree on the issue of Prop 8. the No on 8 group resort to name calling, accusing people of hate, bigotry, and narrow mindedness. The wording on prop 8 was so much in favor of the No vote that the uneducated voter (with regard to the issue) would have voted No (polls showed the wording REALLY mattered). People weren't fooled into voting yes with lies, in fact, I haven't seen anyone refute (effectively) the claims the Yes on 8 ads made. Calling them lies does not make it so. As a parent, I don't want them teaching anything about sex (gay, straight, whatever) to my 1st, 2nd or 3rd graders. If they had left it out of the classroom, I don't think many folks would have suited up for this.
I can't recall ever having a lesson on marriage or straight sex in elementary school. All of a sudden it's necessary? I probably would have voted Yes on 8 as well. I'm not a bigot, I'm a parent.
Comment by Darin — November 13, 2008 @ 2:58 pm
I appreciate your assessment of the situation and I agree with you on what is happening post election day.
If gays/lesbians feel the need to "educate", then do so in a respectful manner. These are not "non-violent" protests. I have seen punches thrown and true "bigotry" signs made. Did the YES on 8 campaign stand outside any gay/lesbian bars? Perhaps the NO on 8 campaign can learn from what made the YES on 8 campaign successful (other than what some say is only money donations). Learn from it and then implement it. This proposition will come up again. So instead of making other people gasp at the true cruelty and hateful words that are taking place in these protests, accept the loss peacefully and use all this energy to try and win when it comes to a vote again. Or just further help out the YES on 8 campaign by acting in such a hateful manner.
Comment by Megan — November 13, 2008 @ 6:25 pm
Interesting that Misha, the resident bigot of this blog,would invite Americans to exercise their constitutional rights af assembly and protest near (I suppose her) church in Texas. They would, according to her, get a welcome of beatings by the (I suppose Christian) worshippers in attendance.
I'm sure that Misha speaks just for herself and not for the majority of Texans. But my guess is that if they were going to tie a few scummy homos to the back of a pickup truck and drag 'em til they found the Holy Ghost, she'd gladly drive.
Probably that goes for Mormons, too.
Comment by smilinjack — November 13, 2008 @ 9:37 pm
It's often been noted that liberalism and terrorism have much in common.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081114/ap_on_re_us/suspicious_powder
LOS ANGELES – Letters containing a suspicious white powder were sent Thursday to Mormon temples in Los Angeles and Salt Lake City that were the sites of protests against the church's support of California's gay marriage ban.
The temple in the Westwood area of Los Angeles was evacuated before a hazardous materials crew determined the envelope's contents were not toxic, said FBI spokesman Jason Pack.
The temple in downtown Salt Lake City, where the church is based, received a similar envelope containing a white powder that spilled onto a clerk's hand.
The room was decontaminated and the envelope taken by the FBI for testing. The clerk showed no signs of illness, but the scare shut down a building at Temple Square for more than an hour, said Scott Freitag, a spokesman for the Salt Lake City Fire Department.
Comment by Robert Rosencrans — November 14, 2008 @ 7:07 am
May I make a clarification? The LDS Church did not donate a dime to this cause. The MEMBERS of the Church donated their money. Where is the injustice? The LDS Church encourages all its members to be active in local, regional and national government. This makes them good citizens. Can you find a Church whose members are more involved in the Democratic process, per capita? Good Citizenship is a stance that goes back as far as the Mormon Battalion, 500 men recruited from the Mormon Church to patrol the southern frontier during the Mexican-American war. They were recruited as they made their escape west after the government not only did not protect them as mobs came against them, but actually issues an extermination order against them which enabled the mobs to shoot, rape, loot and run them from their homes. If Mormons are to be condemned for being good citizens and being active in the process, what message are you sending? The LDS Church did not give money to the Prop 8 campaign. Individual citizens did, as is their right. Are you denying them their rights? Seems hypocritical. The LDS Church does not endorse a candidate, party or platform, and rarely issues an opinion on an issue. Only those it sees as fundamentally damaging to society and the traditional family, the core unit of strength of our society. To call for the tax-exempt status of the Church is ignorant. Read the laws. The Church is well within its rights to dictate the moral standards of its members, and to encourage them to be good citizens. There is one clear reason the Mormon Church is being singled out for these bigoted attacks, as they have been for nearly two centuries: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints teaches the truth, and Satan rails against it.
Comment by John in Texas — November 14, 2008 @ 12:20 pm
Misha, I too live in Texas and would love to take away the tax exempt status us these mega-churches that delve in to politics. The hypocrits in these mega churches are the problem not the solution.
Comment by Lester — November 15, 2008 @ 1:41 pm
Yep, it was the whole 2% or so of the population in California that passed Prop 8. I'm sure the other 98% of Californians had no say in the matter, huh?
Also, the LDS church has prophecies in their doctrine that speaks about how members of the church will face persecution once again in the last days much like they did when the church was in its infancy. Thanks for fulfilling prophecy!!!
Comment by Aaron — November 16, 2008 @ 7:34 pm
Smilinjack? Really? I'm mormon. I was asked by one of the leaders in my local area to donate money to prop 8. I declined. I don't want to be discriminated as a whole because some Mormons chose to donate. Personally I don't care so much about the prop. Whatever rights homosexuals would like is fine with me. I believe marriage is a religious institution. Our church won't allow it in our religion regardless of wether it had passed or not. I believe it's more a civil rights issue. But please don't lump an entire religion together.
Comment by Travis — November 22, 2008 @ 12:21 pm